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pgc all green working and signpost with lettering new colour 2
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A combination of the loading bay outside the Fox, the tables and chairs out on the pavement and vehicles parking on the pavement has on more than one occasion not left enough room for people using wheelchairs or pushing wide baby buggies to get up Fox Lane. How could the pavement and road be redesigned to stop this happening?

car and lorry blocking pavement near fox palmers green 1

lorry blocking pavement near fox palmers green

When the loading bay outside the Fox is occupied and when someone parks on the pavement nearby (a sadly frequent occurrence) there are only narrow gaps for pedestrians to pass through and nothing like enough room for a wheelchair or a wide baby buggy

It's great to see the Fox full of life, surrounded by flowers and its customers spilling out onto the pavement, but the current design of the public realm on the corner of Green Lanes and Fox Lane is proving problematical for pedestrians, and in particular for anyone who needs enough clearance to get through in a wheelchair, mobility scooter or a big baby buggy. The location of the delivery bay that's set into the pavement (is it meant to be used by cars or just brewery drays?) and the cycle stands often doesn't leave a wide enough space to get through. And the unfortunately frequent but presumably illegal use of the pavement further up as a delivery bay (why not just park lorries in the road, there's plenty of space?) combined with a nearby lamp post has the same effect a little further on.

It's clear that the pavement and road here need a redesign, though much will depend on how much of the pavement actually belongs to the pub and isn't a public right of way. Here's a suggestion posted on Twitter by @PaulObrienArch incorporating rain gardens (also referred to as SUDS - sustainable urban drainage system) to screen the tables and chairs on the pavement.

suggested improvements to pavements near fox palmers green by paul obrien

Possible design solution: Remove 1 x parking space on Fox Lane, add inset loading bay outside pub, Add rainwater gardens on both sides of junction, add continuous crossing or zebra crossing, remove barriers erected by pub as SUDs features will screen seating zone from road.

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Darren Edgar posted a reply
03 Aug 2023 09:12
Nothing needs redesigning. Waste of money. All we need is enforcement and that pays for itself.
Ediz Mevlitt posted a reply
03 Aug 2023 10:22
We should remove all parking from the entire fox lane and create a tram from Southgate to Edmonton …. Win win
Karl Brown posted a reply
03 Aug 2023 11:13
Rather than suggest the inevitable (hundreds of?) millions on a new tramway from Southgate to Edmonton, why not simply use the W6? A bit more regular at times would be good but otherwise it works fine.
Karl Brown posted a reply
03 Aug 2023 11:14
The area was discussed at the last PG Ward Panel but primarily regarding litter and damage to the grass verge from contractor’s emptying the bin storage area. This resulted in the council erecting the two metal posts now in situ and a seemingly good outcome.
The pavement space was briefly discussed, and, by memory, The Fox own the sliver of roadway outside their (licensed) chair/ table area, so can, and do park, on it. There is a throughway issue which may be a better one for the ward forum but if not I’ll agenda it when the panel next meets in September – useful since Fox management are on the committee.
Darren Edgar posted a reply
04 Aug 2023 17:07
Karl Brown wrote (message 6923) :

Rather than suggest the inevitable (hundreds of?) millions on a new tramway from Southgate to Edmonton, why not simply use the W6? A bit more regular at times would be good but otherwise it works fine.


Ediz is only saying that because it aligns with his socials and silly campaigning to date. Removing parking is nothing to do with benefitting anyone but purely a matter of bitterness at the LTN and the perception wealthy Lakes residents park their 5 SUVs on Fox Lane whilst it is now all nice and quiet.......
Ann Jones posted a reply
05 Aug 2023 16:43
Isnt it priceless though how Enfield Council actually sold off the original pavement to the developers! It belongs to the developers ? No mention is made of moving the underused cycle racks outside the pub further up the street although removing a parking space across the road is somehow helpful? Has anyone tried to stop the two cafes on Devonshire Square from putting tables and chairs on the narrow bit of pavement on Green Lanes forcing pedestrians onto the cycle lane even though the Council gave them a huge outdoor space on the Square and paid for their tables and chairs? I feel it is a very selective focus to devote an article to this pub which is a community asset whilst ignoring other businesses that have problematic use of the pavements for far longer.
Karl Brown posted a reply
06 Aug 2023 18:31
The development certainly went up to the previous Fox boundary but no further and I’m not aware of any public realm having been sold to the owners / developers. Can you clarify what / where, ideally with evidence, if I’m to take forward. If alternatively it’s an urban myth then best we stop it now.
The spit of pavement supporting the bike-racks narrows into Fox Lane to such an extent that their removal will not be a pavement solution.
Issues relating to Table and Chairs Licenses for the two Devonshire cafes look ideal to be considered as part of the wider review of the new square after its trial period.
Ann Jones posted a reply
09 Aug 2023 23:41
Karl. I was struck by your own words “ The Fox own the sliver of roadway outside their (licensed) chair/ table area, so can, and do park, on it. ” Please can you clarify. I assumed you were referring to what appears to be a loading bay on the pavement? How did the Fox developers come to own roadway/pathway that previously seemed to be public because it used to have a continuous yellow line painted on it as did the rest of roadway so presumably Council controlled. I would be interested to know how come it is now apparently privatised and owned by the developer - do you know? You would hope that the Council would have ensured adequate pavement space for pedestrians at a minimum...
Darren Edgar posted a reply
10 Aug 2023 09:03
Ann Jones wrote (message 6928) :

Isnt it priceless though how Enfield Council actually sold off the original pavement to the developers! It belongs to the developers ? No mention is made of moving the underused cycle racks outside the pub further up the street although removing a parking space across the road is somehow helpful? Has anyone tried to stop the two cafes on Devonshire Square from putting tables and chairs on the narrow bit of pavement on Green Lanes forcing pedestrians onto the cycle lane even though the Council gave them a huge outdoor space on the Square and paid for their tables and chairs? I feel it is a very selective focus to devote an article to this pub which is a community asset whilst ignoring other businesses that have problematic use of the pavements for far longer.


Care to fact check yourself (once again) there Ann? Can all be found on Land Reg, publicly available info.
Karl Brown posted a reply
10 Aug 2023 09:51
Land Registry will provide the definitive answer, but I refer to the late Donald Smith, total expert on all things PG, who told a public forum many years since of the anomaly of the slip of land used by draymen, owned not by the council as public realm but instead by another, the freeholder of the Fox site. At that time it was an issue for some potential project or other, just what escapes me.
That would explain why the yellow lines stop at its extremis and possibly why it is topped n a different style to the public realm. The drayman’s hatch sat at its Geen Lanes end.
If so, and unless the council have subsequently purchased it, it will remain in the ownership of a 3rd party. Logic would suggest that to be the freeholder, possibly it being within the Fox lease (past or current), although one of the managers thinks not.
I’m not aware of yellow lines ever having been on it.
It's used briefly early morning by the Fox for deliveries.
There’s now a public throughway issue, well highlighted, and for the council to ultimately grasp and provide a solution.
Darren Edgar posted a reply
10 Aug 2023 14:21
Freehold shown thusly:

Karl Brown posted a reply
13 Aug 2023 08:49
The (small) area in question, separated by public realm from the main building, will have its own title document, should it indeed not be part of the continuum of public realm. The map simply shows the Fox pub itself which is not in doubt. Title detail could be obtained from HM Land registry, but at a small cost.
Partly linked, I read that pavement licenses, brought in under covid, are to be extended for a year before being made permanent via a bill now going through parliament. The whole approval process will be UK-uniform and easier for applicants. Outdoor dining is seen as a success and research is said to show it can avert crime and anti-social behaviour.
I would say its been good for PG – and other local areas – and more about the triangle wouldn’t go amiss; better to have tables on the pavements than parked cars.
Darren Edgar posted a reply
14 Aug 2023 12:26
The areas shown white have no title on Land Reg, FYI. Usually as adopted public highway. That snapshot is taken directly from Land Reg and shows every possible title.
Karl Brown posted a reply
15 Aug 2023 08:47
Thanks. Equally it could still remain as unregistered land (?) if never having been subject to transfer for decades and any easement which might apply would need actual title deeds to be revealed. One for the council to resolve.
Darren Edgar posted a reply
16 Aug 2023 10:50
point is it is not within the ownership of the Fox.

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