Forum topic: Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Neil Littman
27 Nov 2020 14:12 #5766
- Neil Littman
Replied by Neil Littman on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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Adrian here is the latest on the situation for the businesses on Aldermans Hill and please bear in mind that their income comes just as much from outside the area as locally. This myth about all business being local doesn't stand up in many places. This survey was carried out November 8th about three weeks into the LTN and has not changed much since then:
• Alderman's Pharmacy - “ As a local pharmacy we deliver , at no cost to the patient , medicines to the housebound and those who may be isolating. The LTN has added at least 30 minutes to delivery times; our drivers are constantly sitting in more traffic. We have also noticed a reduced footfall in the pharmacy as people are discouraged from rising us due to increased traffic in Alderman’s Hill. We are located on Alderman’s Hill and there is a steady stream of mostly stationary traffic pumping out fumes which people working or walking in Alderman’s Hill have to breath in
• Top Discount - “Firstly - the traffic build up gas acted as a major deterrent to any customers wishing to visit us by car or by bus. The traffic is so bad that customers are asking whether the increased pollution levels are having an adverse effect on their health. There are serious concerns over the active response times of emergency services when attempting to to access the vicinity. Our own delivery teams are having to consider risks when entering closed roads by being forced to turn round or reverse on narrow residential roads
• Pomegranate Florist - “we sold up our 4 bedroom house in archway and downsized to palmers green - we leased our shop which has been selling flowers in palmers green for 40yrs. We wanted to live and work locally - we wanted to be able to walk to work and have a n environmentally clean delivery to all our local neighbours. Since having our shop and the sheer cost of renovating the place and bringing it up to today’s standards we were over the moon and things were great. A lot of hard work and obstacles but we managed them ! But what was so perfect has now becoming a nightmare. 59 mins to deliver a coffin spray to a house on Broad Walk - a journey that pre LTN would have taken 5 minutes. In 40 years of being in the flower business I have never delivered flowers to a funeral where the hearse had to wait for the florist. Thank god they were totally understanding and knew why it took so long to get there . It made me so ashamed for not getting the coffin spray to the house on the time arranged. The LTN is killing Alderman’s Hill
• Turnem Clean - Dry Cleaners - “we rely on local trade ; people have stopped coming to us to use our services as it takes more than 30 minutes to get down Alderman’s Hill . The on- going Traffic and congestion is also causing local pedestrians to avoid the area. We pay taxes - why didn’t we get a say in this - it is disastrous
• AMC Cookware - “Customers can not get here - therefore they go elsewhere . 10 minute journeys have become 1 hour. Once a customer finds it is difficult to get to us they don’t make the effort to return and we lose them for ever. Increased air pollution and noise due to congestion on the road - Please help us to keep our business open by scrapping this LTN scheme. Otherwise we will have no option but to close down”
• Bennett Walden - “The scheme is extremely negative, not practical and in all fairness not good for the area and community. I live in Palmers Green . I drop off my girls to a school in N21 and what used to be a 5 minute journey is now 25 . There is excessive pollution now due to stagnant traffic
• Peter Michaels Estates - “Our business is already struggling due to the impact of Corona Virus. Instead of the local authority assisting people and businesses they choose to impose this crazy scheme without consulting local businesses. It is now taking us 3 times as long to get to appointments and people are pulling out of viewings and even agreed purchases . Additionally the pollution levels are through the roof affecting our health.
These businesses would like comments to be anonymous;
• Anonymous - “coming to work we encounter unprecedented levels of traffic. Clients have complained about getting to us and we will lose business as a direct result of the LTN
• Anonymous “ There is a lot more traffic. Patients are turning up late and blaming traffic due to road closures. This is negatively impacting our business
• Anonymous - “As a long standing and established restaurant we are appalled by this ill thought out LTN scheme. Regular clients are questioning whether they can come , especially during the day. Our lunch trade is vital. People simply won’t come if they have to sit in a traffic jam for 30 minutes. It is a complete disaster .
• Anonymous - “ Pollution , pollution, pollution - how the hell is this green?”
• Anonymous - “ We are finding that clients do not want to visit us during the day due to the awful traffic.
• Alderman's Pharmacy - “ As a local pharmacy we deliver , at no cost to the patient , medicines to the housebound and those who may be isolating. The LTN has added at least 30 minutes to delivery times; our drivers are constantly sitting in more traffic. We have also noticed a reduced footfall in the pharmacy as people are discouraged from rising us due to increased traffic in Alderman’s Hill. We are located on Alderman’s Hill and there is a steady stream of mostly stationary traffic pumping out fumes which people working or walking in Alderman’s Hill have to breath in
• Top Discount - “Firstly - the traffic build up gas acted as a major deterrent to any customers wishing to visit us by car or by bus. The traffic is so bad that customers are asking whether the increased pollution levels are having an adverse effect on their health. There are serious concerns over the active response times of emergency services when attempting to to access the vicinity. Our own delivery teams are having to consider risks when entering closed roads by being forced to turn round or reverse on narrow residential roads
• Pomegranate Florist - “we sold up our 4 bedroom house in archway and downsized to palmers green - we leased our shop which has been selling flowers in palmers green for 40yrs. We wanted to live and work locally - we wanted to be able to walk to work and have a n environmentally clean delivery to all our local neighbours. Since having our shop and the sheer cost of renovating the place and bringing it up to today’s standards we were over the moon and things were great. A lot of hard work and obstacles but we managed them ! But what was so perfect has now becoming a nightmare. 59 mins to deliver a coffin spray to a house on Broad Walk - a journey that pre LTN would have taken 5 minutes. In 40 years of being in the flower business I have never delivered flowers to a funeral where the hearse had to wait for the florist. Thank god they were totally understanding and knew why it took so long to get there . It made me so ashamed for not getting the coffin spray to the house on the time arranged. The LTN is killing Alderman’s Hill
• Turnem Clean - Dry Cleaners - “we rely on local trade ; people have stopped coming to us to use our services as it takes more than 30 minutes to get down Alderman’s Hill . The on- going Traffic and congestion is also causing local pedestrians to avoid the area. We pay taxes - why didn’t we get a say in this - it is disastrous
• AMC Cookware - “Customers can not get here - therefore they go elsewhere . 10 minute journeys have become 1 hour. Once a customer finds it is difficult to get to us they don’t make the effort to return and we lose them for ever. Increased air pollution and noise due to congestion on the road - Please help us to keep our business open by scrapping this LTN scheme. Otherwise we will have no option but to close down”
• Bennett Walden - “The scheme is extremely negative, not practical and in all fairness not good for the area and community. I live in Palmers Green . I drop off my girls to a school in N21 and what used to be a 5 minute journey is now 25 . There is excessive pollution now due to stagnant traffic
• Peter Michaels Estates - “Our business is already struggling due to the impact of Corona Virus. Instead of the local authority assisting people and businesses they choose to impose this crazy scheme without consulting local businesses. It is now taking us 3 times as long to get to appointments and people are pulling out of viewings and even agreed purchases . Additionally the pollution levels are through the roof affecting our health.
These businesses would like comments to be anonymous;
• Anonymous - “coming to work we encounter unprecedented levels of traffic. Clients have complained about getting to us and we will lose business as a direct result of the LTN
• Anonymous “ There is a lot more traffic. Patients are turning up late and blaming traffic due to road closures. This is negatively impacting our business
• Anonymous - “As a long standing and established restaurant we are appalled by this ill thought out LTN scheme. Regular clients are questioning whether they can come , especially during the day. Our lunch trade is vital. People simply won’t come if they have to sit in a traffic jam for 30 minutes. It is a complete disaster .
• Anonymous - “ Pollution , pollution, pollution - how the hell is this green?”
• Anonymous - “ We are finding that clients do not want to visit us during the day due to the awful traffic.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tom Smith
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Adrian Day
27 Nov 2020 17:56 #5767
- Adrian Day
Replied by Adrian Day on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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Traffic is now settling down and people are adjusting to the revised layouts and amending their journey times. Behaviour change takes time. It'd be interesting to do a robust survey on actual business income levels before the LTN trial, now and in two months time.
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Karl Brown
28 Nov 2020 11:14 #5768
- Karl Brown
Replied by Karl Brown on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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This latest turn takes me back to “Armageddon” and a press letter claiming the cycle lanes would result in hundreds of shop closures on Green Lanes. My own public response, offering a wager at whatever financial level the author determined that such an event wouldn’t happen, ended it. I also experienced strong pushback with the idea for a zebra crossing on Aldermans Hill joining the busy easternmost gate with the newsagent. Again, shop closures were anticipated. Would anyone suggest removing it now?
So I feel a little weary that a set of comments, taken four days into a national lockdown, based on an inevitably confusing transition period as roads were closed in stages over a three week period, when the north circular closure saw immense traffic routed into Palmers Green, and Aldermans Hill itself was down to one lane for a lengthy period due to emergency water works, is being promoted as the latest retail nightmare.
Of course things are tough; even some of the biggest retail names (experts) in the UK are really up against it, but Aldermans Hill is still seeing negotiations for incoming retailers, even now.
So I’d suggest giving things the air they need to work, or of course not work for this particular segment of stakeholders. It’s a mix, from a very local newsagent to a photography studio with an immense catchment area, and at neither of those extremes would I be expecting LTN related strategic worry.
Instilling fear may indeed be a tactic for those fundamentally opposed to the trial. I would suggest, and ask, that be stopped. Not only retail but there has been much concerning the emergency services. Of course, if anyone believes or experiences an issue, refer it to the council or the emergency services, rapidly. But to build and stoke related fear as a general tactic should be deplored; people have enough to worry about. My own experience of liaising with the ES’s as a key element of the PG Festival preparation is that these groups are professional, efficient and absolutely on the ball with their mission. Help them with identifying any issues by all means but they shouldn’t be a tool of an agenda.
"What used to be a 5 minute journey is now 25" is exactly the active travel opportunity LTN's will hopefully encourage. I'll have a word with Mark next time i pass.
So I feel a little weary that a set of comments, taken four days into a national lockdown, based on an inevitably confusing transition period as roads were closed in stages over a three week period, when the north circular closure saw immense traffic routed into Palmers Green, and Aldermans Hill itself was down to one lane for a lengthy period due to emergency water works, is being promoted as the latest retail nightmare.
Of course things are tough; even some of the biggest retail names (experts) in the UK are really up against it, but Aldermans Hill is still seeing negotiations for incoming retailers, even now.
So I’d suggest giving things the air they need to work, or of course not work for this particular segment of stakeholders. It’s a mix, from a very local newsagent to a photography studio with an immense catchment area, and at neither of those extremes would I be expecting LTN related strategic worry.
Instilling fear may indeed be a tactic for those fundamentally opposed to the trial. I would suggest, and ask, that be stopped. Not only retail but there has been much concerning the emergency services. Of course, if anyone believes or experiences an issue, refer it to the council or the emergency services, rapidly. But to build and stoke related fear as a general tactic should be deplored; people have enough to worry about. My own experience of liaising with the ES’s as a key element of the PG Festival preparation is that these groups are professional, efficient and absolutely on the ball with their mission. Help them with identifying any issues by all means but they shouldn’t be a tool of an agenda.
"What used to be a 5 minute journey is now 25" is exactly the active travel opportunity LTN's will hopefully encourage. I'll have a word with Mark next time i pass.
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Neil Littman
28 Nov 2020 12:01 #5769
- Neil Littman
Replied by Neil Littman on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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The following is a letter I have written to Councillor Ian Barnes regarding a possible compromise to the LTN schemes that would satisfy both sides of what is rapidly becoming a divided community when there was no need for this to happen in the first place and how Hackney Council implemented a scheme that has had little criticism as a result.
Dear Cllr Barnes,
Am writing to you to consider that there are other options to the present running of the Fox Lane and other LTNs in the borough that should be considered when the experimental period comes up for review in a few months time and this might be a way of mitigating the ill feeling that has resulted from the way the scheme has been put into place.
I am a bit surprised at the lack of imagination by the council in the implementation of the LTNs in the borough when Hackney have had several such schemes running for several years with none of the same issues that are causing division in the local community in this borough.
One example, is at London Fields where there is both a school and a low traffic initiative.
This has been brought about by having a camera system which ONLY operates during times of high traffic volumes such as rush hour at the beginning and end of the day.
Their cameras operate from 7-10am and 3-7pm.
Buses and cyclists can use the roads at all times.
In addition they have four other school streets which use number plate recognition so that residents are not fined.
Why is our council (and I stress the word ‘our’) so inflexible?
Since the technology is there to make this workable why are Enfield Council no able to do this.
This is the sort of compromise that would satisfy both sides of the argument about whether such schemes can operate to the benefit of local residents and businesses.
The article below is worth reading as it illustrates how another council was willing to work with the local community and reach a conclusion that satisfied all parties.
https://www.hackneycitizen.co.uk/2020/11/16/banned-turns-london-fields-removed-feedback-low-traffic-scheme/
Kind regards,
Neil Littman
Dear Cllr Barnes,
Am writing to you to consider that there are other options to the present running of the Fox Lane and other LTNs in the borough that should be considered when the experimental period comes up for review in a few months time and this might be a way of mitigating the ill feeling that has resulted from the way the scheme has been put into place.
I am a bit surprised at the lack of imagination by the council in the implementation of the LTNs in the borough when Hackney have had several such schemes running for several years with none of the same issues that are causing division in the local community in this borough.
One example, is at London Fields where there is both a school and a low traffic initiative.
This has been brought about by having a camera system which ONLY operates during times of high traffic volumes such as rush hour at the beginning and end of the day.
Their cameras operate from 7-10am and 3-7pm.
Buses and cyclists can use the roads at all times.
In addition they have four other school streets which use number plate recognition so that residents are not fined.
Why is our council (and I stress the word ‘our’) so inflexible?
Since the technology is there to make this workable why are Enfield Council no able to do this.
This is the sort of compromise that would satisfy both sides of the argument about whether such schemes can operate to the benefit of local residents and businesses.
The article below is worth reading as it illustrates how another council was willing to work with the local community and reach a conclusion that satisfied all parties.
https://www.hackneycitizen.co.uk/2020/11/16/banned-turns-london-fields-removed-feedback-low-traffic-scheme/
Kind regards,
Neil Littman
The following user(s) said Thank You: roger dougall, Alan Thomas
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Adrian Day
28 Nov 2020 16:40 #5770
- Adrian Day
Replied by Adrian Day on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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Sadly in Old Park Road the stream of traffic started at 6am and continued through the day till 8pm. Middle of the day was a peak for white vans and large lorries.
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Karl Brown
28 Nov 2020 17:17 #5771
- Karl Brown
Replied by Karl Brown on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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We don’t need forecasts of the “rapidly dividing community” type because it just isn’t true. All communities have multiple opinions across them and invariably on a range of matters, strong communities respect them. Traffic effects in this community has been a major topic for the best part of three decades, and it always been a divisive issue. Despite that, the list of community strengths will be well known to those who live and work here, from more street parties than any other part of the UK, London’s choice for Play Street trials – because of the strength and depth of our community bonds and networks we developed and continue to maintain – Enfield’s strongest Friends of Parks group, the boroughs biggest festival celebrating the local community and so forth. Throwing stones inwards may help a niche narrative but I do suggest best you leave this particular theme well alone. Sitting in a car doesn’t build community, nor does driving through one.
There’s a trial, lessons are being learned and will continue to do so as behaviours are inevitably affected, and indeed more nearby LTN’s potentially emerge. There’s a vehicle specifically set up to feed those findings into. We can all do so, and that’s the best way forward for the multitude of stakeholders to use their voices.
There’s a trial, lessons are being learned and will continue to do so as behaviours are inevitably affected, and indeed more nearby LTN’s potentially emerge. There’s a vehicle specifically set up to feed those findings into. We can all do so, and that’s the best way forward for the multitude of stakeholders to use their voices.
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Adrian Day
28 Nov 2020 19:17 #5772
- Adrian Day
Replied by Adrian Day on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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Just launched ! Well worth a look https://foxlaneltn.org/
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Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
Neil Littman
30 Nov 2020 23:21 #5773
- Neil Littman
Replied by Neil Littman on topic Fox Lane low-traffic neighbourhood
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I don't think it is a forecast but a fact that the communities are becoming divided. A simple example is that there are now two websites representing opposing factions regarding the Fox Lane LTN. In other words, an issue in a relatively small area. I received a reply from Cllr Ian Barnes saying that he doesn't follow the ethos of allowing certain vehicles into the area despite the fact that Hackney manage to have an LTN with free entry only allowed outside rush hour morning and evening. The fact is he doesn't want to use the technology which would result in a much more even handed solution. Also the traffic levels have not improved or eased in rush hour. A new video is being posted almost every day by a couple of residents in Palmers Green who are monitoring the situation and local business are affected. I am not just talking about shops but people who have no choice but to drive as part of their jobs. A local heating engineer who worked for me last week said that he won't travel to the Lakes area during rush hour anymore as he cannot see the point of sitting in stationery traffic.
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