Forum topic: Found in the Town Hall: the "Palmers Scream"

All very fascinating, but what needs to be established is the provenance of this collection, and for this purpose it should be in the care of the Enfield Local Studies Department. Then it needs to be analysed, to establish the date or dates of the two documents by dating paper, ink, orthography, etc.

And where in the Town Hall or library building was this found? Was it anywhere near the former Local Studies Department? Do local historians know anything about witches in the area?

If supposed to be genuine - or a copy of earlier documents - does the physical evidence support any of the assertions - for example, is there mortar at the bottom of the lake (and which lake)? Are there corresponding willow trees?

The photograph of the box shows another document, folded, possibly a map, with part of the name 'Southgate' clearly shown. Is this connected (e.g., showing the location of the lake, willow trees, etc.)?

As a member of the Society for the Rehabilitation of Semi-Colons, I'm intrigued to see how many are used in these documents, as well as the use of quotation marks, which looks modern, rather than old, as is the use of 'they' and 'their' for one child, instead of 'it/its' - another modern aberration! ('Its shadow', not 'their shadow'.)

But technical analysis must be the starting point, to establish the dates of the documents.

This is indeed a fascinating and potentially important find. I have a friend who is an academic who specialises in English witchcraft of the Late Medieval/Early Modern period – I will contact her and see if she can shed any light on the matter.

The use of ‘they/theirs’ for ‘it/its’ is not necessarily an indication of modern provenance: both Chaucer and the King James Bible (to name but two) do occasionally use ‘they’ and ‘theirs’ in the singular.

I’m pleased to read there’s going to be some expertise looking at this. The Enfield Independent’s news site is currently full of spookiness centred on the 1977 Enfield Haunting in Brimsdown, but also highlighting spookiness in the Crown and Horseshoes pub in Horseshoe Lane and the Hop Poles in Baker Street. (No mention of the Fox’s ghost.) Most scary of the Enfield examples seems to be the speeding phantom black coach in Bell Lane which passed right through Boys Brigade member Robert Bird in 1961. (The ultimate solution for Shared Space on our roads?)

They make no reference to the Town Hall manuscript, although if that’s only just been discovered I wouldn’t expect it to be in their archive from which they’ve drawn the examples.

Here is a photo of one of the Grovelands Witches seen lying in wait in the early morning mist in the park recently

... and one other thing: How are the screamers to maintain the all-important ring (established by holding hands in a circle) if they have to point at each of the trees during the ritual?

Can Martin Jenkins give me a couple of examples (from Chaucer and the KJV) of 'they' and 'their' being used in the singular? (Not a trick question; I'd genuinely like to know!)