Forum topic: The Fox consultation has now begun
The Fox consultation has now begun
PGC Webmaster
04 Jul 2017 15:15 3074
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The Fox consultation has now started. ...
The Fox consultation has now started. The exhibition in the function room at the back of the Fox is on until 8pm today (Tuesday).
There is now more information on the consultations website at http://thefoxconsultation.co.uk,thefoxconsultation.co.uk, including the slideshow you can watch below.
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The Fox consultation has now begun
PGC Webmaster
05 Jul 2017 18:54 3075
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A screenshot taken from the consultation slideshow showing how the Fox Lane frontage might look.
The proposed interior layout of the pub. Note that the area outsided the drawing to top left (11 o'clock) of the plan, next to the blue hatched area, is currently part of the pub (to the left of what is currently the main entrance, in Green Lanes) but under the proposals would become separate premises, used as a restaurant, cafe or shop.
The loss of this part of the pub would be partially compensated by freeing up the area where the toilets are at present. Concertina walling would be used to partition this area off to become a function room. The second, third and fourth images show this area used respectively as part of the pub, as a function room and finally as a cinema space for Talkies Community Cinema.
The toilets would be moved into the basement. The entrance would move to Fox Lane and there would be tables outside, where the pavement will be wider than currently.
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The Fox consultation has now begun
David Williamson
07 Jul 2017 15:03 3084
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Talkies welcomes the release of the design proposals for the Fox development and the consultation currently taking place. The renovation of the original façade and the creation of a much improved food and drink offer will be well received locally.
Talkies recognises the constraints under which the revised pub will need to operate to make it successful, but is sceptical about whether the new scheme can be effective for use as a community cinema.
The existing function room is identified as an asset of community value and the design proposals seek to incorporate a function room as part of the pub space. However, the replacement is an awkward shape and much smaller.
The design shows 145 seats for a film screening, but in reality that number would be much smaller - perhaps below 100 – once circulation space and distance from screen is taken into consideration. However, the greatest challenge to the design is how to create acoustic insulation between the bar and function space. The fold away doors shown in the design will need to be a very high specification if they are to achieve this requirement.
We make no comment on the residential development, leaving that to more qualified individuals and groups!
Talkies recognises the constraints under which the revised pub will need to operate to make it successful, but is sceptical about whether the new scheme can be effective for use as a community cinema.
The existing function room is identified as an asset of community value and the design proposals seek to incorporate a function room as part of the pub space. However, the replacement is an awkward shape and much smaller.
The design shows 145 seats for a film screening, but in reality that number would be much smaller - perhaps below 100 – once circulation space and distance from screen is taken into consideration. However, the greatest challenge to the design is how to create acoustic insulation between the bar and function space. The fold away doors shown in the design will need to be a very high specification if they are to achieve this requirement.
We make no comment on the residential development, leaving that to more qualified individuals and groups!
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The Fox consultation has now begun
Basil Clarke
09 Jul 2017 20:00 3085
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The presence of the function room and its community uses was a key factor in the Fox becoming Enfield's first Asset of Community Value. As David Williamson has said, the proposed new function room would be much smaller and would make a far less useful venue for Talkies and other community activities, which would be a great loss.
The owners of the Fox intend to take a big chunk out of the existing pub and convert it into a shop or cafe/restaurant. I would argue that if instead the area to the left of the current entrance were retained as part of the pub, it could become the new function room. At other times it could be used as part of the pub, eg as a dining area. Many pubs offer two types of catering: more formal restaurant food and less formal "bar food", eaten in different parts of the pub. I think that there are enough potential customers for the new upgraded Fox to utilise the whole of the existing space if it provided a three-way offer: 'posh" restaurant food, simpler, but still high quality, "bar food" and a space for people who just want to have a drink and a chat. There would then be enough space to provide a more adequate function room, larger and with better acoustic separation. I suspect that there is considerable unsatisfied demand among the residents of PG for the more upmarket pub that the Fox could become from people who for one reason or another don't care for Wetherspoons. What's more, there are already vacant retail premises in Green Lanes and Aldermans Hill.
One thing to bear in mind is that in April there was a change in planning legislation regarding pubs. It is now necessary to obtain planning permission to convert a pub into a shop or cafe even if it is not listed as an Asset of Community Value (see www.planninglawblog.com/more-planning-protection-for-pubs) - and I assume that this goes for converting part of a pub into a shop.
The owners of the Fox intend to take a big chunk out of the existing pub and convert it into a shop or cafe/restaurant. I would argue that if instead the area to the left of the current entrance were retained as part of the pub, it could become the new function room. At other times it could be used as part of the pub, eg as a dining area. Many pubs offer two types of catering: more formal restaurant food and less formal "bar food", eaten in different parts of the pub. I think that there are enough potential customers for the new upgraded Fox to utilise the whole of the existing space if it provided a three-way offer: 'posh" restaurant food, simpler, but still high quality, "bar food" and a space for people who just want to have a drink and a chat. There would then be enough space to provide a more adequate function room, larger and with better acoustic separation. I suspect that there is considerable unsatisfied demand among the residents of PG for the more upmarket pub that the Fox could become from people who for one reason or another don't care for Wetherspoons. What's more, there are already vacant retail premises in Green Lanes and Aldermans Hill.
One thing to bear in mind is that in April there was a change in planning legislation regarding pubs. It is now necessary to obtain planning permission to convert a pub into a shop or cafe even if it is not listed as an Asset of Community Value (see www.planninglawblog.com/more-planning-protection-for-pubs) - and I assume that this goes for converting part of a pub into a shop.
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The Fox consultation has now begun
PGC Webmaster
17 Jul 2017 14:24 3093
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Fox Pub consultation response by Better Streets, July 2017
This is the consultation response from campaign group Better Streets for Enfield - see more about us at www.betterstreets.co.uk.
We think there is potential for The Fox to become an asset to the community in Palmers Green, while providing decent housing in a pleasant town centre where people do not feel they need to own a car. This is an issue close to our hearts, as we are campaigning for streets that are not dominated by cars and healthy lifestyles that do not depend on them. A well-designed public realm around the pub, retail unit and flats, especially in terms of greenery, could make the whole street scene much more attractive and encourage people to spend time on foot and linger in the town centre, boosting the high street.
Parking
Positioning of the flats
The flats are positioned very close to the pavement. The position outlined in the drawings shows the Fox Lane front of the flats will be considerably closer to the footway than the houses further west along Fox Lane. As well as noise from the pub surely affecting flat residents as people spill out, we are concerned that the building will be too imposing compared to the other buildings and will detract from the historic facade of the Fox.
Use of space: pub vs retail
The proposed retail unit is larger than the proposed area for the pub and communal space combined. This represents a loss for the community as well as for the pub.
Garden
We are disappointed that there is no outdoor green space for pub customers behind the pub - the prospect of sitting at tables on a busy pavement (competing with pedestrians and not far from traffic) is much less attractive. However, see our comments about greening the pavement below.
Pavement / public realm outside The Fox
The footway for the Fox Lane railway bridge on the south side is very unattractive and lacking in social safety. Could improvements to it be included in the redevelopment?
We would welcome a decent amount of greenery in planters outside the building on both Green Lanes and Fox Lane.
Access to Devonshire Close
We would like there to be pedestrian / cycle access from Devonshire Close through to Fox Lane - there was for many years until a fence was built around the pub car park (potentially this is a public right of way). This would create a more direct route for those not driving that avoids the high street.
This is the consultation response from campaign group Better Streets for Enfield - see more about us at www.betterstreets.co.uk.
We think there is potential for The Fox to become an asset to the community in Palmers Green, while providing decent housing in a pleasant town centre where people do not feel they need to own a car. This is an issue close to our hearts, as we are campaigning for streets that are not dominated by cars and healthy lifestyles that do not depend on them. A well-designed public realm around the pub, retail unit and flats, especially in terms of greenery, could make the whole street scene much more attractive and encourage people to spend time on foot and linger in the town centre, boosting the high street.
Parking
- 38 parking spaces for 44 properties is a lot. We want to move away from car dependency in Enfield, and Palmers Green is well-connected by public transport, with trains and buses set to become more frequent next year. The Mayor's draft Transport Strategy encourages new developments to have little or no parking where public transport is easily accessed and we support this - between 0 and 20 spaces would be preferable.
- However, charging points for electric cars as mentioned at the consultation evening would be very welcome for any parking that is provided.
- Bike parking at 2 bikes per flat is welcome. However, will there be secure storage space for non-standard bikes, such as cargo bikes, hand cycles and tandems? Accessible bike parking is now a requirement for some local authorities, e.g. Islington, for disabled cyclists.
- Car club spaces. We would like to see the developers working with the council and car clubs like Zipcar and DriveNow to ensure that all residents have access to a shared car. Currently there is one Zipcar bay in Palmers Green - not enough to serve the current population, still less another 44 households.
- For pub customers arriving by bike we would like to see Sheffield stands at least, or better, covered parking,
- Disabled parking - we would welcome some of the proposed parking bays being allocated instead as disabled parking, for both residents and visitors.
Positioning of the flats
The flats are positioned very close to the pavement. The position outlined in the drawings shows the Fox Lane front of the flats will be considerably closer to the footway than the houses further west along Fox Lane. As well as noise from the pub surely affecting flat residents as people spill out, we are concerned that the building will be too imposing compared to the other buildings and will detract from the historic facade of the Fox.
Use of space: pub vs retail
The proposed retail unit is larger than the proposed area for the pub and communal space combined. This represents a loss for the community as well as for the pub.
Garden
We are disappointed that there is no outdoor green space for pub customers behind the pub - the prospect of sitting at tables on a busy pavement (competing with pedestrians and not far from traffic) is much less attractive. However, see our comments about greening the pavement below.
Pavement / public realm outside The Fox
The footway for the Fox Lane railway bridge on the south side is very unattractive and lacking in social safety. Could improvements to it be included in the redevelopment?
We would welcome a decent amount of greenery in planters outside the building on both Green Lanes and Fox Lane.
Access to Devonshire Close
We would like there to be pedestrian / cycle access from Devonshire Close through to Fox Lane - there was for many years until a fence was built around the pub car park (potentially this is a public right of way). This would create a more direct route for those not driving that avoids the high street.
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