Healthy Streets

Is that all, six trees for PG around the Triangle area? I suppose given that we now have a lack of trees in the main public area of PG we should be very grateful that our area is being given six trees.

However, as somebody who deeply cares about the environment and about life in general I am very dishearten.

Centrally, Enfield Council had been given sufficient amount of money to bring about the cycle lanes in PG surely there is more then enough money for more then just six trees. Those that are responsible for the area know that Green Lanes on both sides of the infamous busy North Circular in PG has very heavy, noisy traffic and that the Cycle Lanes will not be applied to the south of PG. Six trees are no way enough.

Various deceases are on the rise, mental issues such as depression is on the rise because the atmosphere is unhealthy and yet those that are responsible for our area do not seem to comprehend that a void of Trees in our environment is actually very dangerous to health, hence the burden on the NHS. It is also known that a greener area make people feel good and the area is respected far more.

Trees absorb the negative forces in our atmosphere and help combat the noise from traffic. Sufficient trees are required (some evergreen trees for winter time) along the whole of Green Lanes in street containers as they have in central London and in Cities and Towns abroad, also further trees in the centre bay of the North Circular with the vicinity.

Its simple, if we want to exist in a healthy environment then we must have sufficent trees.

I would second your plea for more trees, but to be fair to the council the Cycle Enfield money in ringfenced - it has to be used to promote cycling - and the council are extremely strapped for cash after the swingeing cuts in their government grant (with more to come).

Lots of people have been pleading for the replacement of the one tree we lost at the Triangle, so 6 is a gift! In fact it might be better to spread the 6 trees out a bit more: if they all grow to maturity it's going to get quite crowded there!

Referring to the final consultation plans for the scheme there were to be 11 new trees introduced to the high street and 11 further trees on/either side of the Triangle.

Interesting. Are you able to point us to the document where they said this?

Why don't we raise funds and pay for our own trees?

http://cycleenfield.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/A105-Statutory-Drawings-web-version.pdf

The key shows the difference between existing trees and proposed trees.

I don't know whether this July 2016 plan is the final one. The Triangle illustration and the text suggests that it may not be. I went on a tree walk in November arranged by Councillor Dinah Barry with the Senior Arboricultural Officer who suggested, to the best of my memory, that there was about to be a meeting to finalise details along the whole route. Again as I recall it there likely to be a slight increase in the total tree numbers. I seem to recall however that some shown "as existing" near St Monica's were likely to be removed because of interference with the relocated bus stop.

As I've discovered on previous such walks, there are increasing problems in finding places to plant street trees because of cross-overs, lamp posts, gas, water, electricity and fibre services, opposition from residents, potential damage to pavements and on main routes traffic/pedestrian visibility, and the need not to plant trees which when mature impede buses. My impression is that the tree officers are keen to plant trees and safeguard existing ones, but the need to avoid such problems often frustrates their ambitions, even when money is available.

I'll follow this up with the arboriculturists to see whether they can confirm planting plans in Palmers Green.

With regards to some of the raised comments, in Central London they have all the said issues and even more that we have here in PG such as gas, lamp post and so on and yet the main and famous pavements such as Oxford Street, are filled with trees in Street Containers. Trees placed in street containers do not mature in height and width as trees planted in the ground.

The London Mayor is understood to be focusing on transforming the whole of London into a healthier greener city, PG is part of London (hence our eligible vote for a London Mayor) therefore, maybe Enfield Council should consider asking the London Mayor for additional money for further trees in PG.

Pollution generated in Green Lanes and the North Circular does not stagnate in one places it travels with the wind it deteriorates human health, however because it happens to be invisible many people seem to make lightweight of it, which is a dangerous mistake.

If we want to lessen the burden on the NHS we must potentially focus on improving the quality of human health.

Trees are not just majestic looking, they serve their many positive purposes in our world and one being is that they are essential for our well-being.

"pavements such as Oxford Street, are filled with trees in Street Containers"

Really? Are they??

That's where I work and I wouldn't consider the road remotely leafy green, it's a digusting polluting drab grey highway.

Trees in street containers actually, do exist in Oxfords Street, even if they do not exist directly outside your place of work. These particular trees in Oxford Street are sparkling with Christmas lights during the Christmas season.

Without doubt, the mammoth volume of traffic is suffocating our entire city so much so, that even trees seem in essence elusive.

Hypothetically, irrespective of attractive buildings, all cities and towns void of any vehicles would look and feel bleak without trees and seasonal planting.

If Palmers Green can only go back to how it used to look in the 1950's or 60's that would be great, it had more love & life with vast amounts of trees and flourishing plants everywhere, seating areas for all, shop building were pristine and shop fronts were so pretty looking inviting and welcoming, unfortunately over 20 years it has lost its lustre in the jewel, it has gone into the wrong hands and been sabotaged from pillar to post like a rag doll, even with the new cycle lanes it has made no difference in fact it has been made even worse, not well thought-out plans have been slap dashed lots of the original ideas and plans have not been followed through so many things missing as we were promised more trees in fact 11, flowers to beautify and uplift peoples spirits and boost the energy of the area, lighting for more safety, seats for all especially for our eldest or someone with aches & pains, walking sticks, pregnant ladies, there has been a lot that we have been told that would happen then as soon as the awful cycle lanes that have taken up our pedestrian walks have been completed then everyone has kept quiet and disappeared especially the business associates in the area who are suppose to be doing more do not care less, since the clock has been put in the triangle by Costas Georgiou it has never once shown the correct time what was the point of it then, little things like that speaks volumes that those involved in controlling or managing the area have become uninterested & very frugal with the money that they have been given by The Mayor of London, and were is all the rest of the money?? that has been left I am very sure there is some left because the area does indeed look very incomplete and still looks neglected.

Can we please have more pedestrian safety crossing signs put around, as when I am in the area there have been people especially our eldest who are too afraid to cross the new roads and stand around asking others where they should be crossing, it is all very confusing if you ask me and safety of the public should always come first as it can cause a lot of accidents, as we have seen posted in social media, there is one particular dangerous turning around the triangle when the 121 bus comes in to Palmers Green from Southgate the bus turns in and people do not realise that the vehicles are coming from behind them then you have to physically turn your head all the way around before trying to cross over to Iceland Supermarket, even I had a near mis-accident, more care and safety needs to be implemented rather then they leaving the public to get on with it uncompleted.

I am so pleased and very overwhelmed to read that Chrystalla Georgiou like myself is very passionate about Palmers Green our once Jewel born & bred, I just wished others felt the same especially those that supposedly manage or make plans for the area, they should stick to what we have been promised and not for us having to keep asking what has been left out and is very much needed by the public, it is a lovely community and a lot more should be done.

It was good to hear the affection that Joe Mark O' Conner holds for the Palmers Green area. "Good to meet you in print Joe."

But on the other hand I think he should await completion of the cycle lane project before giving up on what the Council and many residents have tried to achieve. It's next to certain that a little 'tweeking' will be needed. The other thing to bear in mind is that it's rarely easy to convert a long-existing public space to the demands of a different age. Let's wait a bit and then debate.

Pedestrian crossings have their place, but they cause vehicles to bunch which limits the smooth flow of traffic and - whilst internal combustion engines dominate our streets - do dreadful things to air quality. There's a big need to reduce traffic; that's why the Council is doing its best to encourage people to walk, cycle or use public transport for short journeys. Also much has to done to prevent people speeding; in my opinion even 20 mph is too much for a high street.

How can you judge a scheme before it's even completed? People hate change and love to fuss. It's hardly scandalous that you have to "physically turned your head" when crossing the road. Deary me. It's just people are unaccustomed to the current arrangement, but that will change.

I've drive and cycled the new PG and loved it for both. Massive improvement. The only thing that puts my off cycling to the local businesses and spending money there is their too common pig-ignorant attitude towards EMH. I will never shop somewhere sporting a SOGL poster for that reason. If that means continuing up EMH to Sainbury's or Waitrose then so be it.

Hi David,

You do realise that these are new planned roads that have no pedestrian safety signs so people do not know which directions vehicles are going and coming, we have a road opposite sharps bedroom that was a one way road going to southgate and now its made double, so you can sympathise to why the public find it fearful crossing these new roads. It's not about people finding it difficult to turn their heads, that is not the point, we have the frail & elderly people, the disabled trying to cross these ridiculous slapdash roads without any consideration of the less able.

I would suggest focusing on the plethora of new green / red men pedestrian lights and associated safe crossing countdown timers now surrounding the triangle traffic island – and then double checking for rogue vehicles before stepping out just to be on the safe side.

Spot on, Karl.

I can add use as a ped now too and still cannot find fault. Easy to use.

Stop, look, listen. Then cross. That's been the advice for decades and it stands true here still. For those less bold/able, use the myriad of crossing assistance like Karl says.

What would you say to those in wheelchairs and the blind to do, going towards the high step in the island made new near to Iceland Supermarket and other parts of the area, would you tell them to miraculously spread their wings and fly over it, a high step on a island is beyond thoughtless.

When residents say to each other what has happened to Palmers Green and other local areas that have been left to turned into a poor miserable state as those supposed to be managing our areas to beautify and to encourage and support shopowners who say they feel unsupported by Enfield Council to help make their shops into a more inviting and welcoming experience to boost trade and make Palmers Green a thriving town centre at least then people will shop more on our high streets and less online so will not end up a ghost town, people in local authorities are not understanding the concept when residents and shopowners get frustrated and all they want is to better their community and feel proud where they live and that is to improve the area, and that is to stop being so righteous because your able and to care more about those that are struggling.

Were all going to grow old one day....so lets be kind to one another and that will hopefully bring a happier Britain...because as it stands at the moment everything is looking bleak....

Crikey Joe, take a punt at some punctuation! Took me three goes to read that second paragraph!!

PG high street looks nicer and more welcoming than it did 2 years ago. What makes the high street bleak is nail salons, bookies, charity shops and the Alfred Herring. Not the recent street realm improvements.

As for the disasterous high step, I'll have a look tonight when I cycle past. I don't remember seeing one any more than I can remember there ever being a direct crossing to Iceland.

Having visited last night, there is no high step as there is not a crossing, as standard in road design there is an elevated platform upon which the traffic signals are mounted. That is all.

More importantly, looking at google maps, there was never a direct crossing to Iceland. The kerb outside remains raised as it has always been and the barriers remain in situ.

Iceland is no less accessible now than it has ever been therefore the example forwarded, especially to tug on the heartstrings highlighting elderly and disabled, is entirely spurious and I expect soley created to discredit an otherwise good scheme by someone with a predisposed dislike to it.

As a matter of fact, there was always an informal crossing near to Iceland using the island as cover at a halfway point. Slightly risky but convenient, especially when catching a southbound bus when trains failed!
I have a vague feeling that the new lay out makes it more difficult but I can't recall why, though it's not to do with kerb height.

I can't imagine the slow moving elderly and infirm making a made dash across a very busy road for the 'safety' or a quas-traffic island too often. And the barriers and kerbs remain both sides further evidencing the moot point.

Have made that bus stop dash following train failure a few times though - totally ignored any crossing availbility as normally to stressed about the delay at that point!

Comparing new and old, recognising the formal crossings applicable for the less nimble, there is no change to usability. The example given is an extremely minor one, and actually just an example of the pettiness EMH is up against.

There was indeed a mid-road pedestrian island, albeit not wide enough to safely take a pushchair or wheelchair in what was a busy and complex tarffic situation.

Based around the pre and post triangle traffic islands we have moved from two pedestrian crossings, a zebra plus this pedestrian island, to three fully illuminated pedestrian crossings. Desire lines might have been compromised slightly but I would personally see it as currently inherently more pedestrian-safe.
The island was of course occasionally more of a death trap than pedestrian helpful ...

Karl you do not have to visit to inspect to see what I am talking about, I was born and bred in Palmers Green and I still reside in the area so I know for a fact there was no elevated platform, to visit a area of concern says it all only those that remember how it was before all this new cycle lane performance know how much safer it was as pedestrian crossing the roads now its cycle lanes colliding with pedestrians and people getting off the buses etc, now matter how you look at it, cycle lanes are not been used they have wasted taxpayers money and made into a danger zone no thought for others has been put into it, they've been given this huge heap of money and they could not wait to make a mess of it as usual, that's what they do in the UK, and there's nothing Great about Britain because those managing our areas are always doing it on a poor budget it looks glum and uninviting a couple of trees with brickwork, shops and buildings are in a poor state we have a galore of supermarkets, bookies, kebab shops, nail bars etc, there's no vary of shops no imagination no sparkle theres only so much of the same we can only take, it's very upsetting that it has all gone downhill for Palmers Green.

Oh by the way just have a look at Colin photo showing no elevated platform.... you cannot get away with the before and after showing no safety pedestrian crossing has not been considered unfortunately it's all about cyclist who do not hardly use them, in Winchmore Hill we have mothers with pushchairs that use them instead and stationary cars attached to the cycle lanes nothing makes any sense.

Life eh, Joe, what a chore it must be.

I’m talking a guess what you have been referring to is the change from the small mid lane Pedestrian Island outside Iceland to what is now a traffic light / vehicle control barrier-island, with a new, much safer, pedestrian dedicated crossing about 20m to the north, fronting Holland and Barrett – also without barriers. People do of course choose to cross wherever they wish.

Karl you really must check on your wording... talking a guess?? take a breathe it's all the excitement about how you call it the... elevated platform.

Yes your right Karl life is a chore when you have people in the world like yourself that find the less able amusing and make fun off, it's not surprising Palmers Green has gone downhill as those managing the area do not care less, it's unfortunate that we have people working for the Council that get paid very well that have shown insensitivity, no ideas and no imagination no wonder cyclist are colliding with pedestrians and ending up in fights on our streets due to the irresponsible cycle plans, no thought of pedestrian safety is never put in anything, only to complete it and leave it sloppy, no wonder Enfield Council has a terrible and shameful reputation

Those vacant shops started with the cycle lanes, people particularly those with children and many others are far too scared to walk in the area as the roads have been made very dangerous to cross......they are losing a huge amount of revenue due to their very bad planning decisions in the area .....due to damage influence and incapability, Councils need to change and down size drastically to make them much more affordable to run which will also help build the broken relationship with their residents...

Why should the less able go elsewhere to cross if they want to get to a particular shop, so your saying they should go further away to get to where they want because the road plans of the Council are ruined to just put in meaningless cycle lanes and throw away billions in the bin that's what the UK is good for taking taxpayers money and making rubbish.

By the way Karl I have friends who have parents that are in wheelchairs who find the roads very discriminative towards their needs...

Karl B. has very sensibly opened another discussion about the look and improvement of Palmers Green now that the installation of the cycle lanes is nearly complete under the title of "Our Green Lanes - saved". There he pointed out that money is to be spent on town-centre regeneration as part of the Mini-Holland developments. I suspect it could be argued that the comments I'm about to make should be made in that discussion, but I have possible change of mind to raise which seems more relevant to this discussion.

But first things first: should the cycle lanes along the length of Green Lanes not have been installed in the first place as Joe Mark O'Conner says? Well Joe, we have congested roads, terrible air quality leading to illness and death on a grand scale, a dreadfully under-exercised population and kids deprived of their freedom. There really had to be a change, and there'll have to be more of it - the plan was to encourage drivers to make short journeys on foot, by bike, or public transport rather than by car.

Time will tell whether the plan has worked, but I guess that after a period of selfish rat-running by motorists it will.

On the issue of crossing the carriageway I think it will become safer as people get used to the new arrangements.

Now to my possible change of mind, which is about whether cycle lanes on the pavement are a good idea through town centre areas.

I wasn't involved during the key development period of the cycling plans so I didn't know it was going to happen, but I probably wouldn't have objected at that time because I've seen them work in cycling terms in Germany. Now, and looking at them as a cyclist, I've found that pedestrians are becoming used to them and already tending towards staying on the pavement space. You might say: "Well and good if it's a move to cycling is what you want.", but as a general principle I think town centres should be social space, and cyclists flitting by must make that more difficult, posing the question: " Should another way of facilitating a cycling renaissance been thought about?" Perhaps it was for all I know, but we have what we have, and ways of persuading drivers out of their cars had to be found. High numbers of cars in cities are not a sensible solution city to transport problems because of the space driver-only cars need.

The death of traditional high streets in the way you describe is a significant problem not attributable to our Council or any council, but to the development of buying on-line; it's happening everywhere. But as Karl said our Council has plans to do what it can with money set aside for that purpose. Now it's up to you, Karl and me, with others to do what we can to help with that endeavour.

Here we can see the new, all ages and abilities friendly, crossing; and only three shops away where there is no longer an engineered pedestrian crossing point. That same position now has a specific mid-lane disincentive to cross with eg a pram or wheelchair. Definitely safer crossing 20 metres to the north.

Photo evidence seems to resoundingly prove what is, in fact, a completely moot point.

Thank you, Karl.

FYI, Joe, EMH was TfL funded so you don't have to worry about your tax pennies & pounds. It's not money that could have been spent any other way by Enfield Borough Council as you have to specifically apply for the funding and spend it on a 'mini holland' cycle infrastructure scheme.

I look forward to cycle home on it tonight as always.

PS: EMH has nothing to do with retail closures on PG high street. Nothing

So if the cycle lanes as you say are not the problem for shop closures then what is...because Waitrose closed and moved to Winchmore Hill because there was new built properties and they felt they were best suited in Winchmore Hill as it has been given more of a makeover and Palmers Green was a embarrassment.
I wrote to them to ask them to stay as I am a fan and they wrote back saying that their shop was more suitable in Winchmore Hill probably because they saw and felt Palmers Green was not a positive area to represent their upmarket shop...which I loved it made the area feel and look much more pristine and gave it a lovely feel to the place...
It is a shame though that some shops move because of the poor state it has become and a embarrassment for shop-owners not wanting to situate their shop in the area...and that speaks volumes.

I love my area and I would like to see a more sophisticated and welcoming feel and one of the main problem that lets the area and residents down is the poor looking shops if this was all made new then hopefully we would get shop-owners wanting to open in the area and bring a variety of new items and not have the same repeated shops i.e supermarkets , bookies etc, I think we have more then enough of these that lowers the tone.

Waitrose closed because it's business model requires larger/weekly shopping trips, not drop ins, therefore it moved to where it could have it's own dedicated car park.

If EMH was the problem - how do you explain Waitrose relocating to another store right on the EMH cycleways?!

MultiYork has gone because it went bust. Nothing to do with EMH or, indeed, PG.

Starbucks left because it's lease expired. Note how small a unit Costa operates from in comparison. A coffee shop cannot sustain as much real estate as Starbucks was occupying therefore the store's P&L wouldn't justify a renewal.

I agree that bookies, mini-markets, nail/hair salons etc all lower the tone. But only consumers can determine sustainable demand for alternative product offerings.

And EMH should encourage more local shopping. As would increase housing density which is so often resisted.

Waitrose apparently moved into loss once Sainsbury opened nearby - there's a finite local market for food. Try that one as the real reason. It therefore followed M&S and Iceland before it trying the same site.

THanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

I'm "locking" it for the reasons mentioned in https://www.pgweb.uk/forum/palmers-green-town-centre-environmental-improvements/813-the-influential-sing-songs-of-pray-for-improvement but will be relaunching a discussion into shops in Palmers Green in a few days time.