Forum topic: Council proposing new active travel route through Palmers Green

So, I'm not allowed to join in the debate on a website that only exists because I pay a lot of money to run it and on which I expend many hours of work every week?

I think Neil has misunderstood the nature of this website.

I'm not the editor of a newspaper, paid for their work. I'm someone who is voluntarily spending large amounts of time and money on promulgating information about events and other news to the community with the aim of being helpful. That's a completely different kettle of fish. And I am part of the community and entitled to have opinions.

I distinguish between articles and comments written as Webmaster, which are straight reporting of information, and articles and comments where I express my personal views. The latter I write under my own name.

David Beadle set out some criticisms of a scheme which I support. I did not criticise David personally, I explained why I thought his points were invalid. I disagreed with his criticisms and proffered reasoned arguments as to why I thought he was wrong. Some people will agree with him, some with me, others with neither of us. That's called debate, and if he can find holes in my arguments, then he's welcome to point them out.

As for me, I'd appreciate more thanks and less looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Thank you for an informative article Basil. The whole thing relating to active travel / segregation of cycle routes / LTNs within this area is dividing our community.

I don't assume many people are against the ethos of active travel - but it is the manner in which these schemes are being "introduced" which is causing the most division. Fox Lane LTN, for example, was plonked in and a flawed set of data being used to extol its virtues.

This new plan for an active walkway between Cambridge Circus and Southgate Circus is - let's be honest - laughable. How many residents of the area around Cambridge Circus want to travel ON FOOT to Southgate for "shopping" ? Surely they'd go to Tottenham / Wood green where there are many more bus-routes than the single route via W6 to Southgate? With respect, as a resident of Southgate/Palmers Green for almost 20 years, I've never had cause to go the other way, into the Cambridge Roundabout, for anything except to access the A406. Would people walk that route for LEISURE? I doubt it, what is there except houses to walk past! One might DRIVE to Cockfosters/Trent Park or down the A10 to green areas round LEe Valley if they were in search of a nice place to walk.

This brings us to cycling route. I am all for it, great idea. Truly, I am a big believer in proper cycle lanes - I've seen them work well in Poland, Holland and France. But we don't seem to have the space in London unfortunately. Furthermore, as mentioned above, there is a lot of division caused by the LTN as it is, so doubling down on a cycle route, will, I suspect cause more anxiety. Please can someone show the evidence that the people who claim they want it, will use it. I run regularly around Southgate / Fox Lane LTN and I almost never see cyclists using the area within the LTN. Therefore, if the cyclists are not using it as an LTN, what is the point in investing more there? Better to fix the pavements, I've tripped whilst running on a couple of occasions too many due to the various haphazard paving slabs.

To be clear, properly thought through cycle lanes would be LOVELY, but this seems a luxury when one can consider to first, fix the pavements, sort the bus routes so they aren't held up in the (ironically greater since LTN) traffic and improve parking somehow so people can visit areas, leave the car and go for a walk ()

Again, thank you for the article.

An interesting contribution by Andrew. There's a lot to unpick and my time is limited, so I'll post my thoughts in batches, starting with his criticism of the concept of a Southgate to Edmonton active travel route.

I'm pretty sure that the answer to that precise question is zero or close to zero. But that's missing the point of putting in new routes. As I've already pointed out:

Andrew surely doesn't think that the only purpose of the M1 is for it to be used by people driving the entire way from London to Leeds? In the same way as drivers use shorter or longer stretches of the M1 as part of millions of individual journeys, people walking or cycling will be using sections of the new route as all or part of many different journeys.

While I agree that few if any people would follow the whole route on foot, that's not true of people riding bikes, for instance people living in Southgate and working at the North Mid (plenty of NHS workers ride bikes or would like to if it were safer) or other parts of Edmonton or Tottenham, or students travelling to the College of Haringey, Enfield and North East London in Tottenham.

Speaking as another resident of Palmers Green, and also "with respect", I have walked from my home not far from Green Lanes to the Cambridge Roundabout and beyond on multiple occasions, not for leisure but to get somewhere - mainly to get to the North Mid, but sometimes just to explore the area beyond on foot.

Why walk when I could drive, cycle or catch the bus?

Firstly, because I don't ride a bike (too nervous) and I've never learnt to drive. In my case, because I choose not to, but there are huge numbers of people who don't have the option of driving. In some cases, because they can't afford a car or someone else in the family needs to use the car, in other cases because they're too young to drive, in other cases because they have a medical condition (eg epilepsy or vision problems). The bias in transport planning discriminates against such people - particularly outside London, where levels of public transport are derisory, passing traffic is uncomfortably fast for pedestrians and many stretches of road have no pavement.

Secondly, I could catch the bus, and I often do. But by walking, I'm killing two birds with one stone. I need to get from A to B for some reason (and often I need to know how long it will take to get there, which is unpredictable with buses), but I also need to walk to stay healthy, both in body and mind (as recommended over and over by medical experts). Though, as you say, the walk to the Cambridge Roundabout is rather dull, that doesn't entirely preclude getting pleasure from the walk, from observing things as I go by, from looking at flowers in people's gardens... My philosophy is to always aim to get something out of journeys, not just their destinations, and as a pedestrian or bus passenger I don't have to focus on the road ahead but can observe the world as I pass through it or let my mind wander.

I often have to travel to parts of Southgate, mainly around Southgate Green. Prior to the LTN, I would mostly use the bus, because the huge amount of traffic along Fox Lane and the need to cross junctions took away the pleasure from walking. Now I invariably walk. I enjoy the bracing walk up the hill and the relaxing return to Palmers Green. I see plenty of other people walking significant distances up Fox Lane - mostly faster than me, as I'm 72 and don't walk as fast as I used to. It takes me 20 minutes to Southgate Green from east of Green Lanes, 30 minutes to Southgate Circus.

I often go to those places for a walk, they're easily reached by public transport. And getting there by public transport is better than driving because you don't need to do a circular walk - for instance, I can get the bus to Enfield Lock and then walk through the Lee Valley and Epping Forest to Chingford, where I can catch the bus back to Enfield. Closer to home, I can go to Oakwood, walk through Trent Park (the southern part near Oakwood is very tranquil, too far from the car parks, I suppose) and then follow the newly created route through Enfield Chase and end up at Chase Farm Hospital, from where I can easily get home by bus.

But there are some excellent walks from PG, eg following the Pymmes Brook through Broomfield Park, Arnos Park, the Waterfall Walk, Brunswick Park to Oak Hill Wood nature reserve. For a shorter walk, there's Grovelands Park within easy reach.

There's absolutely no need to drive and contribute towards the looming climate disaster to go for a nice walk.

I must be well into my 3rd decade of hearing the same message set. It’s inevitably of the form, I support active travel (often add in, I’m a cyclist to add weight), but this latest idea / scheme (insert latest eg 20mph zone, street closure, planter, cycle lane, LTN, speed bump, other) is (insert adverse view), and also (add in some whataboutary possible to link to scheme / idea in question). Cover imposed new thing / dodgy data / terrible council / others not listening / no consultation / crooked consultation / other. Draw out the point that it will impact on existing vehicle traffic and so can’t even be considered a viable option. This latter is the real deal breaker, because how anyone can install a new active travel supporting idea without impacting on the present system makes the whole thing redundant. Hence save the budget and do (insert latest wheeze, it was even more police in an early wave) instead. QED as they say in maths.
What has certainly changed has been the huge amplification of this message by social media in the last decade, to the extent that two nearby houses having different views mean the scheme “divides our community”. No, vehicles travelling from A to B, if doing so inappropriately, usually too fast, or when massing in numbers, divide community. Take the two sides of the north circular as a perfect example. But the division point here is one of personal choice. Many have made it to adverse effect to us all.
And until there’s a breakout from the psychological noose of, I support active travel but don’t expect any change to my driving options, I can only envisage another three decades of the same. That said, with this area, borough, city and nation on a pathway to make driving more difficult while simultaneously raising the importance of people not behind the wheel it’ll only be a tougher path ahead.

As someone who regularly cycles from Palmers Green to the 'Theatre of Disappointment' on Tottenham High Road I look forward to both the PG to Great Cambridge section (much of which is currently dangerous to cycle) - and the extension beyond.

What is fascinating is the lack of evidence to support the claim for cycling in LTN yet the Council wants to plough ahead with this scheme. The Fox Lane LTN proved that 1. Cycling increased more in the wider area where there is NO LTN than in Fox Lane LTN and 2. cycling on boundary roads increased substantially more than in Fox Lane LTN. Meanwhile PG cycle lane counts remain stubbornly low. Flatlining at best. The reality is the Council doesnt have the evidence to support further expenditure on cycling infrastructure. The Council should focus specifically on pedestrians and bus users as these are by far the most used form of sustainable travel. Cycle infrastructure unfortunately often comes at the detriment of these two groups by reducing pavement space for pedestrians and introducing cycle lanes in front of bus stops putting bus users in danger, plus delaying buses in the extra congestion.

There are two fundamentally different approaches to transport infrastructure: firstly, that of meeting demand. The UK followed this in building more and more roads for several decades to satisfy increasing traffic volumes. They filled up, often simply moving the bottlenecks elsewhere. It was concluded to be a failed approach. The second is to build infrastructure to generate demand. HMGs approach to the latter is outlined in various iterations of a document called something like the cycling and walking investment strategy. Wording has been finessed over iterations but basically headlines, “to make walking and cycling the first choice for shorter journeys or as part of a longer journey”. That’s what is going on. LBE are not building to meet existing demand, rather they are building to fuel future use in line with, and most likely ultimately funded by, HMG’s long-established strategy.
In that vein, the obvious pathway would probably to join existing major hubs, hence the Southgate / Cambridge roundabout and now the PG station / New Southgate station via Arnos Grove station proposed route.