Forum topic: New report on measures relevant to revitalizing Palmers Green

That is useful information from Colin

Not many of us would dispute that there are some horrible shopfronts in Palmers Green.

As Karl has implied, it is not a problem unique to this area, but almost the entire A105 south of PG. Actually, you will find similar high streets in many parts of London and other cities in the UK.

It is generally the sign of their decline. However it seems that even some posh towns such as Crouch End are not immune.

http://opinion8.ning.com/forum/topics/surely-this-did-not-get-planning-permission?commentId=6311863%3AComment%3A46170

It is evidence of the desperate measures business owners will go, to make their premises stand out - to the type of customer they are trying to attract. Unfortunately, in Palmers Green, even the "?anchor?" Morrisons must share some of the blame.

Hackney has a lovely shopfront design guide for the Kingsland conservation area. It is a shame Enfield Council cannot emulate this, for conservation areas and a less restrictive one elsewhere.



However, I do not believe that either the absence or presence of on street parking necessarily has any bearing on those shop fronts. But, plentiful on street parking does work in small suburban centres, in attracting trade.

Pittshanger Lane Ealing, below was the winner of the London Catagory of the Great British High Street in 2015. And there, lo and behold right in front of plentiful parking bays is the publlc library, similar to the one we would have had in Palmers Green Town Centre, were it not for the 2010 change in administration at the Civic Centre




Below is Street View of High Road Goodmayes in the London Borough of Redbridge
No on street parking (Road too narrow, line of cars is for traffic lights)...and look what you have got..total desolation. It has been dreadful there for decades. Like Palmers Green, Goodmayes has several hours free parking courtesy of of superstore and a substantial council car park



A few miles away across the A12 is Manford Way, also in London Borough of Redbridge. It is om the former LLC Hainault Estate and has relatively high levels of social deprivation. Despite that, it has a decent shopping parade, supported by plenty of on street parking.



So, whilst I will not pretend that this is scientific proof of the merits of on street parking, I would urge skepticism of Karl's Islington experience and implied statement that removing on-street parking benefits trade. Furthermore, Islington as some never tire of telling us, is full of the metropolitan elite. Palmers Green's metropolitan elite seems to comprise the small self selecting group that inhabits this forum. Otherwise, the demographic is somewhat different

David Huges!,

Bubble?? I think the word is called being passionate and very concerned about a place I love, and grew up and my family and I still live in the area with beautiful memories 20 yrs ago, as then there was such a warm community feel and the shopkeepers had more pride with keeping up appearance, now as you look around there is a very unwelcoming feel due to the shopkeepers being so complacent!

Enfield Council is useless, the endless emails sent by me to make changes in the area are ridiculous, my reports and suggestions to them are always ignored or when I check the progress on there site, they say they have completed the change and they have not not, and never response back to me, which I find extremely rude, especially when residents have to pay £200 or more each month towards their council tax (rip off) and they always say they have no funds! we want the change and we need the change it's all about giving back to the community!

No answers but it seems clear from comments on this forum (which is open to all I had previously believed), earlier surveys, the best part of three decades worth of anecdotal comments, local data such as recently circulated by PGbe Beautiful, and issues raised by Kaye and David Hughes, that there is indeed real scope for improvement to the centre to assist with better trade and social features .


That’s a strategic issue as well as needing the more individual – ongoing - aspects highlighted by Kaye. To help develop a strategic response here’s much baseline data, the informal, the surveys (council and local) and the 2007 District town Centre study and more to build with. Highlighted comments such as:
• Many occupiers suggested Palmers Green is ‘too-down market’ when compared with other (Enfield) centres; and
• Community and entertainment facilities within the centre are limited.

Ringing similar bells to this thread.

The 2007 Study, stale but unlikely to be far adrift, confirmed that PG centre falls within the catchment areas of larger shopping centres such as Wood Green, Brent Cross, Central London and several others and so generally serves more local areas. The later London Plan highlighted similar issues and as a general rule across all District Town Centres drew resultant plans very much based on foot / cycle access.


We learn that 4 out of 5 visitors only visit PG once a month (or less)) and visitors are almost exactly split equally in coming by car, walking and public transport. Which means ….. We can also see that PG has a noticeably higher visitor profile (or ABC1) than any other Enfield town centre. Which means …..

On the other hand Islington is one of the ten most deprived Authorities in the UK. It may need more of those stated elite - certainly to improve recycling and composting levels, which the last time I had a need to get into the data and its implications for a project.

The impact on shops, with or without parking I wouldn’t guess at, I tend not to.

After being tabbed as London’s First Choice for children and community (see earlier Forum post on the PG Play Quarter pilot) and the attached article (

) it was pointed out that the Standard has recently also dubbed PG as London’s First Choice for second time buyers. (http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/londons-property-hotspots-for-second-steppers-from-palmers-green-to-upminster-the-capitals-top-a105271.html )

Using the maxim, everything always comes in threes, any suggestion what the next accolade for PG will be?

The Standard’s article was somewhat provocative with its descriptions of “Green Lanes, a resolutely shabby street” and “By day, Green Lanes is a little threadbare”.

My wife and I were second steppers who moved here. Did so, because of the Edwardian Houses. We would have loved to move to Crouch End and Muswell Hill, but put off by prices and parking pressure/congestion, even though we share a car and compared with many, take up only a modest amount of road space. Also PG was a relatively convenient commute for both of us at the time... and is an extremely convenient commute for me now! We had lived in a flat on an uphill one way street with a speed hump right outside our flat, which created a whole load of noise and pollution. At the time Enfield Council was following Barnet’s lead and digging out these abominations. That was another attraction for me. Shame that things have since changed! For my wife, there is the big Turkish community to make her feel at home – and all those retail and dining establishments with tasteless shopfronts!

Whilst play streets are a nice enough idea provided they have support from residents, I do not see them as having any revitalizing effect on Palmers Green. The Palmers Green play street my son and I passed through about a year ago to was not like the permanent play street of my childhood. The mums and dads were out there in force keeping a very watchful eyes on proceedings, which surely defeats the whole object.

“By day, Green Lanes is a little threadbare, and locals complain about too many betting and charity shops, but it still has a vibe which few other suburbs can match.” First bit true. Second bit, total hyperbole.

Going back to Enfield v Islington: There may statistically be more socially deprived households in Islington than Enfield, but average incomes are far higher in Islington £39,790 compared with here £33,110 (2012/13 – source GLA). This must mean that there is a far wider gap between the better of an the poor in Islington, but also a lot more people who have very high incomes and therefore a great deal of disposable income to spend in those chic shops and restaurants. Remember, it all started off in hip Camden Passage at least 50 years ago. Not only that, but the trend is that Enfield is becoming relatively worse off with household income in money terms (c.f real terms) increasing 44% % in Islington compared with 32% in Enfield Between 2001/2 and 2012/13. So, the Islington metropolitan elite is very much a reality.

Back to the core thrust: any ideas for PG centre (not least because some might just be picked up as part of the imminent Cycle Enfield inspired refurb)? Personally I think a clear identity for PG centre to distinguish it from the miles of same Green Lanes wouldn’t be such a bad thing. And local residents can have a real impact, just look at Myddleton Road just over the A406, pulled up by residents from its death dive and now with committed businesses it’s shortlisted for the Great British High Street award. Fingers crossed for them. A huge achievement already.

Beyond that, I’m not clear how a comment that the visual appearance of a row of ordinary shops ex parked cards was noticeably better (to me) than the equivalent with parked cars gets into the “Islington Metropolitan Elite” but as once home to BoJo and Blair, neither known for their paucity, I wouldn’t disagree that there will be wealth hot-spots alongside deprivation. But beware mixing mean with distribution curves then drawing a conclusion - suggest you never work in policy, science and certainly not the City, even with someone else’s money.

It is with some trepidation that I approach this thread again; not least because I'd forgotten that I started it , and didn't take that into account when I drafted my more recent contribution. Which begs the question: "What prompted me to start it?" And the answer is a long and very detailed report by Living Streets - an organisation which aims to stand up for pedestrians - called "The Pedestrian Pound'. In essence the report said that there is no research evidence from anywhere in the world to show whether the proximity of car parking space is key to retail success, but there are plentiful Case Studies which suggest that improving the public realm does really matter. Which means pleasant buildings, generous pedestrian space such as pavements, trees and other planting, seating, and spanking clean pavements/shop fronts. All of which chimes with Kaye Castanheira's plea in this thread for shopkeepers to do much more to attract and welcome customers into their shops, and with my rather casual comment that squiggly lines of parked cars on Palmers Green High street are not a pretty sight. Or put another way: parked cars detract, consciously or not, from the pleasure of being on Palmers Green High Street

Paul Mandel seemed rather energised by this observation; perhaps equating it with our very different approach to car use. Well we do differ, and we're both entitled to make our case, but that's not the point here. Here we are seeking to enhance our chance of creating a local social space/pleasant place to be.

Whether we agree with him or not Paul's intervention is apt to this issue, because in planning the future for Palmers Green we need to bear in mind London's population growth, and what that might mean for car density and journey times. Or more directly the pressure not to own a car because congestion and lack of parking space is too heavy to overcome. Indeed signs of that pressure are already evident as cars are parked in less and less likely places, and journey times at peak travel hours extend to the ridiculous. Personally I am affected by evening journey times extending from 20 minutes 20 years ago to around 60 to 75 minutes now. Partially, it has to be said, by the tendency to park in unhelpful places.

My point? At some time in the not too distant future there will have to be a shake-up of car ownership/use with the following possible outcomes: lower per capita ownership of cars, a much greater likelihood of walked or cycled journeys to retail sources, more home deliveries, a tendency to hire a car/be a member of a car club for longer journeys, less of the tendency to take a car on every trip, the possibility of removing car parking from the high street.............and in the end a new urban culture/mindset dependent on public transport for longer urban journeys.

Limiting the opportunity to park in social space such as high streets may not be that far away. Wood Green did it years ago.

Meanwhile Palmers Green retailers do need to sharpen up their act - compare PG shop fronts with Muswell Hill.

Karl seems to be second guessing my background "suggest you never work in policy, science and certainly not the City, even with someone else’s money."
Well here goes:
1. Degree in economics - you can decide whether economics is a science or not.
2. A chartered accountant - they usually have worked with other peoples' money, and I am no exception.
3 20 years in a property investment company, most of whose income derives from shop rents. I would add that none of those properties have ever been in Palmers Green

We all know that high streets are in steep decline. First we had out of town shopping malls, superstores, then retail parks and more recently internet shopping
However,, I do not pretend to have all the answers. There is no magic wand. In my view, if there is a long term excess of retail space, then land should be re-designated for purposes where there is greater demand.

Karl and David have their ideas. but, they are not transformative. Some are good - but not new. Certainly improving the public realm has some positive effect . That is a good side to Cycle Enfield - but the public realm improvements are actually quite minimal. As regard to Palmers Green, even Enfield Council's own consultants Regeneris, who have used scientific methodology in their report, expect t Cycle Enfield will have a slight negative effect on retail trade overall.

Enfield Council , could enforce its rules/guidelines on shop lighting, shop signs, keeping shop windows clear, and shutters. That would help to make the retail experience more attractive.

The scruffiness of some premises, notably few of the independent "continental" food stores and some eateries could indicative all manner of hygiene issues. So more rigorous public health enforcement, would help. This needs to include measures to clear up, keep clean and tidy back alleyways, many of them filled with waste from businesses of fly-tipped. This is an area that needs cooperation between the Council, property owners and their tenants.

There are also persistent problems with drunks and beggars, which must put some visitors off shopping in Palmers Green. Unfortunately, there are several hostel type places in the vicinity, so whilst those remain, we are inevitably going to experience associated problems. Of course there will always be the need for such places. but, no one wants them in their neighbourhood.

David regrets that Palmers Green is not as nice as Muswell Hill Broadway. But, The Broadway is fortunate that in a. its location, b. it is in a conservation area c. has much a better preserved and architecturally superior Edwardian building stock, c. has a far more prosperous local population.

Karl would like some kind of local community effort like there is in Myddleton Road Bowes, Park. Fair enough, but the two places are totally different. Palmers Green still has a significant number of national multiples in occupation. Myddleton Road, just has Ladbrokes. You can do the weekly shop in Palmers Green, . You'd struggle to in Middleton Road. All the banks are in Palmers Green. There are none in Myddleton Road. Green Lanes in a main road. But at least, in Middleton Road isn't. just to wind up David, there is no shortage of on street parking. Southgate Green is nice enough surely if you want to sit at a pavement table outside Cafe Rouge. And when Nissi on Aldermans Hill's bi-fold doors are open, the view onto Broomfield Park is lovely too.

Back to strategy: I do have a view on the direction of future development Palmers Green. The Council's next planning strategy should facilitate the redevelopment, with good quality four story high residential buildings (including roof space) of the peripheral parts of the A105 where there is underutilisation, of land, notably on the Western side between Hedge Lane and Fox Lane and south of the Triangle. But, obviously it also needs to ensure that there is sufficient provision of additional school place, within easy walking distance..