News, comment and features

Last chance for Govia?

Share this article share on facebook share on twitter

News media are reporting that the Department for Transport is drawing up plans to strip the operator of Great Northern rail services of its franchises if a new interim timetable does not improve reliability sufficiently.

govia train at palmers green

Govia Thameslink Railway: Truly a "crap" service

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) is due to introduce the interim timetable on 15th July.  The aim is to create timetables for Great Northern, Thameslink and Southern services that the company will be able to deliver, thus ending the chaotic situation which has reigned since the May timetable changes and has reportedly seen cancellation or severe delays affecting around 20,000 trains over a six-week period.  According to GTR, the interim timetable "prioritises peak-hours services and reduces service gaps" and is a "key stage in our work to provide a more reliable service to passengers over the coming months".

Though disruption of trains on the Hertford Loop, which serves Palmers Green, has been much less severe than on longer-distance services, the situation is hardly normal.  For instance, during last Friday's afternoon rush hour the sole GTR employee at Highbury and Islington was complaining over the PA system that he was not been provided with information about trains that were running, apologising for the "crap" service, suggesting that passengers should take photographs of the train indicator as evidence when submitting claims for compensation, and warning that there would be no Welwyn services for at least 80 minutes.

Currently Great Northern's website has timetables which have "been revised to show services we are planning to operate". The website warns that "There may be additional on-the-day alterations to Thameslink and Great Northern services; which we will advise you of as early as possible by updating Journey Planners and Live Departure Boards. It is essential that you visit nationalrail.co.uk and recheck your journey as close to your time of travel as possible.  If you are planning to travel on Saturdays or Sundays, please plan your journey by visiting nationalrail.co.uk and using the journey planner. Once again it is essential that you recheck your journey at nationalrail.co.uk as close to your time of travel as possible for on-the-day alterations."

As always, the most comprehensive explanation of what has gone wrong appears on the London Reconnections website.  This supports the claim by trade unionists that the DfT itself bears much of the blame for the chaos.  The same point was made to me by a GTR public relations officer who I met at the Bohem brewery opening party.  He was a strong defender of Govia and of privatised railways in general, but said that the number of civil servants employed by the DfT had been cut back so severely in recent years that the department was no longer capable of adequately exercising its functions - which implies that some of the blame attaches to the person in charge of the DfT, Chris Grayling.

Links

Govia Thameslink will be stripped of rail franchises and forced to give passengers month free if service does not improve within fortnight (Sunday Telegraph)

Thameslink operator stands to lose franchise if chaos persists (Guardian)

Govia Thameslink 'could lose franchise' over rail chaos (BBC)

Govia Thameslink could be stripped of franchise due to sustained disruption (Independent)

GTR Timetables

Holy Grails and Thameslink Fails (part 2): The plan that went wrong (London Reconnections)

Log in to comment
Posts in discussion: Last chance for Govia?
Karl Brown posted a reply
#3946
04 Jul 2018 10:36
“The train has been delayed due to congestion caused by earlier delays”, so the announcer informed us as we waited at a south London station yesterday. What the earlier delays were caused by we were only left to postulate, but at least had lots of unexpected time to do so.

But not as bad as my son’s recent journey to Exeter, where the human-packing was so efficient he was physically unable to put two feet on the ground and spent the whole journey with one foot on top of the other. (My daughter conversely took up in the cleaner’s cupboard.) A typical late afternoon trip to the south west they were informed. Young and fit, it seems things were not pretty for many other travellers not in such a category.

Having successfully battled through the 57 million ticket combinations to pay some apparently random journey fee it seems harsh to then have such additional barriers throw in the way of your rail trip.
PGC Webmaster posted a reply
#3949
05 Jul 2018 00:27
The Mayor of London and his deputy mayor for transport, Heidi Alexander, are lobbying to take over the Moorgate services currently run by Govia Thameslink Railway under the Great Northern Metro name.

TfL’s record of running successful rail services in the capital shows that giving it control of GTR’s beleaguered routes out of Moorgate is a no-brainer.

“The Mayor has offered the immediate assistance of TfL staff to work with the DfT [Department for Transport] to make the franchise work better, ahead of TfL being ready to take over the entire service in 2020.”


See https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/deputy-mayor-heidi-alexander-claims-transferring-parts-of-thameslink-network-to-city-hall-is-a-no-a3879071.html for more details
Andrew Stedman posted a reply
#3950
05 Jul 2018 07:44
I hesitate to say something nice about Great Northern, given the cancellations and appalling state of their trains, but the increased frequency on the Hertford Loop has generally worked well for me on my journey from Palmers Green to Highbury and Islington. I have been able to get a seat on most services, though I am in the fortunate position of travelling a bit after 9am weekdays. There also seems to have been a reduction in the number of half-length trains, a feature i found particularly annoying.

The half-hourly service at the weekends remains a disgrace,
Darren Edgar posted a reply
#3955
05 Jul 2018 10:10
I don't like the new loop times so much. I get the early services between 0630 and 0700. I found the old 0632 and 0646 much better timed for me personally and especially the 0646 being a quick service - they're all 18 mins to H&I from PG now, all quicks removed.

I always get a seat though now, on the 0642 or 0651, which is nice. And we seem to escape the worst of the cancellations - though random ones are still happening.
Adrian Day posted a reply
#3971
15 Jul 2018 23:33
The 'service' dropped to new depths today (Sunday 15th July). First day of the third new timetable in as many months. Palmers Green to Finsbury Park reduced to one an hour - but the 10.37 cancelled...so actually one every two hours. On my return the 20.00 at Finsbury Park showed as running - then 5 mins late...then delayed..then disappears - so next train 21.00 (guy on platform says they have no drivers). I've used PG station for 26 years and I'm reasonably sure this is the worst it's ever been.

Oh and the app which gives updated train times was only showing cancelled trains or tomorrow's trains - it couldn't show running trains. You couldn't make it up.
Basil Clarke posted a reply
#3972
16 Jul 2018 15:31
The interim timetable that started yesterday can be downloaded from https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-timetables/interim-timetables-july-2018/gtr1_dl_gtr-e.pdf

The offpeak service through Palmers Green was increased to four trains an hour, at 15 minute intervals, in May. It has now reverted to three trains an hour, but instead of being spaced evenly the pattern is now 10 40 55 past the hour into Moorgate, in other words the trains at 25 past the hour have simply been deleted, leaing a 30 minute gap.





Judging from a fairly cursory glance, the evening offpeak pattern is the same.

And still there are cancellations!



In my view, this new timetable is simply not acceptable. At the very least we need an evenly spaced three trains an hour. And continuing cancellations just add insult to injury.

The message needs to be sent to the government that Govia must Go!

[Thanks to Garry Humphries for bringing this to my attention]
Adrian Day posted a reply
#3973
16 Jul 2018 21:55
The much trumpeted improvements have melted away - we're worse off than before.
Karl Brown posted a reply
#3974
17 Jul 2018 13:17
Frankly guys I wonder if you’re peddling “fake news” because if you look at the public position of the operator and the latest results from the major shareholder of the JV you will see that (and here I lift word for word):
• Govia has extensive experience running complex and challenging rail operations, managing significant change programmes,
• Go-Ahead (that's the majority shareholder in the JV) is a high quality transport operator with an industry leading position in the bus and rail sectors
• Good first half performance; full year expectations increase, due to one-off rail benefits
• Rail division results ahead of expectations for the half year – reported operating profit of £40.3m (H1’17: £26.6m), including one-off rail benefits
• Progress in all three Group strategic objectives: protect and grow the core, win new bus and rail contracts and develop for future transport needs
• During the period we have delivered improvements to support our strategy and deliver benefits to passengers.
• Our established bus and rail businesses continue to demonstrate the value private companies bring through the delivery of customer-focused public-sector transport services
• We are confident that our strategy will continue to deliver value to customers, colleagues, society and shareholders over the long-term

So that’s OK then.
Adrian Day posted a reply
#3978
18 Jul 2018 22:22
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/7641cd17-e739-4e5a-ad65-96ba5b74ec62?in=13:20:59&out=13:21:31

Bambos raised the issue in the HofC today
Andrew Stedman posted a reply
#3986
19 Jul 2018 04:47
I totally agree this is unacceptable. I too discovered the random gaps between a reduced number of trains, and only an hourly service at best last weekend is a disgrace. The picture of the knackered old train with paint missing says it all: GTR just don't care about the service they provide and should go.
Neil Littman posted a reply
#3988
19 Jul 2018 08:00
What was the point of changing the timetable anyway? In over 25 years of commuting in London (nearly all on Thameslink from either West Hampstead or Winchmore Hill) I got used to the two timetables a year and the odd cancellation but now it is just ridiculous.
Garry Humphreys posted a reply
#3995
21 Jul 2018 13:53
In reply to Adrian Day's comment, above, indeed he did, and this is what he had to say:

speaker:Bambos Charalambous : 1 Commons debate
==============================================

Govia Thameslink Franchise (18 Jul 2018)
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2018-07-18a.410.4&s=speaker%3A25676#g420.1
Bambos Charalambous: Despite the interim timetable from Govia
Thameslink, my constituents continue to get a woeful service, as they
have done for years, on the Great Northern route in and out of Moorgate.
Does the Minister agree that it is about time that Govia was stripped of
this franchise and the line given to the Mayor of London to run?

To keep up with our MP's frequent and excellent contributions in the House, sign up for e-mail alerts from www.theyworkforyou.com (who just happen to be based in Green Lanes, N13!). Most of these contributions do have direct relevance to our local community here in Enfield Southgate.
Karl Brown posted a reply
#4007
02 Aug 2018 18:04
I’ve had some wild experiences in getting through the 57 million available ticket-option maze but this is one of the best being proposed by the national train web site: look at a day return to Brighton and buy tickets PG to Brighton, via Victoria (or indeed any available route) and its £16.40 each. Alternatively, get yourself to Victoria and buy a return from there to Brighton and it’ll cost £28.50 each. So that’s £12.10 extra or £24.20 for the pair of us. In addition there is then an Oyster cost of getting PG to Victoria and back, £9.80 I believe. That’s another £19.60 for the pair of us.

So should I pay £32.80 or £76.60 for exactly the same journey on exactly the same trains? (I went for the former.)

Now it’s to just hope they run at all and then ideally on time.
Adrian Day posted a reply
#4008
03 Aug 2018 10:10
That's a decent price - though you're right to be sceptical, Karl. 10.10 from PG to Moorgate just cancelled - so a 45 minute gap between trains on a busy route in middle of school holidays. I claim now every time this happens - which means I'm richer but stuck at home :)
Karl Brown posted a reply
#4009
03 Aug 2018 15:49
Sadly the PG ticket machine “could not print all vouchers, please contact ticket office”. Walking inside I find a notice, PG ticket office closed due to …. but the gate monitor kindly suggested I try Winchmore Hill ticket office (by return train journey I wondered). Alternatively talk to the staff at Brighton. (On the basis the machine manged two out vouchers but only one return voucher we can both get there to ask the question but currently not all of us can get back). I sense a short film in the making, and probably having to buy a fresh ticket at Brighton before going through the trouble of claiming that fee back in some rather long, convoluted exercise.

I read this week about some government minister outlining that our railways are the envy of Europe. It does seem we have slipped into a world where you can say absolutely whatever nonsense springs into your set narrative, and apparently believe it.
Basil Clarke posted a reply
#4010
04 Aug 2018 14:02


This is Harringay station at around 7pm on Friday, photographed by Richard McKeever , who tweeted the following:

@GNRailUK your performance this evening was woeful and potentially life threatening. Of course things will go wrong but the way you managed disruption today was amateur.

I think "amateur" is as good a word as any to describe Govia's management of their franchise. Same goes for the Department for Transport's management of the entire rail network under the leadership of Chris Grayling.

There was a time when our railways were run by professionals who had spent their entire careers with BR and knew how to run railways. In defence of rail privatisation, the usual mantra is "But what about the curled up sandwiches they sold?" There's no arguing with that, is there? After all, the quality of sandwiches is clearly more important than reliable train services...
Karl Brown posted a reply
#4011
04 Aug 2018 22:30
High five to the early morning PG ticket office staff who sorted things covered in previous posting in a jiffy. So let’s have:
More ticket office staff so they can actually be maned when they are scheduled to be;
Enough train drivers to drive the trains that are timetabled to run;
Enough trains to fill the scheduled (and promised 6 per hour) timetable;
Effective management of the railways; and
A lot less Chris Grayling.
Personally I’m happy to pay a fare that’s equitable for all parties; doesn’t bounce around, and in particular vary depending on which channel you use (ticket prices for exactly the same journey can be different on line, via station machines and station ticket offices); where trains turn up when they are scheduled to; and get you to where you expect to go to at the time they state they will; while the fare paid doesn’t include a subsidy to public transport in random European countries, nor a whopping divided / bonus to certain controlling / managing parties when the service is patently substandard. Is that really too much to ask?
And might this huge shortcoming, and equivalents in several other sectors, have anything to do with the relatively poor level of productivity across the UK?
Neil Littman posted a reply
#4016
09 Aug 2018 09:33
I too got caught in that incident last Friday where the whole timetable collapsed from about 5pm onwards with the only explanation being that a train had broken down earlier that day. I was at Highbury & Islington waiting for a train to Winchmore Hill and we were told to go to Finsbury Park as trains would be starting from there via Kings X. Eventually I reached Hornsey station where our very late broken down train was 'rebooted' and just as it started working again the driver announced it would now be going non-stop to Hertford. This is the reason so many people were on the platform having not intended to go there. Fortunately another train arrived within 10 minutes but the total journey time from leaving Finsbury Park was over an hour and half. Apparently this has been going on for weeks with numerous unexplained cancellations. It is almost as if Govia want to get out of running the line. Prior to the change in timetable the line was pretty good. I suspect staff are demoralised and taking it out on their management. Be good to hear their side of the story as all we can do is stand and wait and wait and wait...
Graham Bennett posted a reply
#4017
09 Aug 2018 09:37
I too was on the train at Harringay last Friday. The train left Moorgate late and was full to capacity with people standing in all aisles. We waited 5 minutes at Harringay while the driver fixed a problem with the power system. He then announced he had been told to go directly to Hertford, so the train emptied onto the platform as you can see in the picture. I'll acknowledge that this type of action can be justified if a disadvantage to some means benefits to others because their trains can keep to schedule.

But what happened next is important. By chance, my partner was on the following train. It was half full at Finsbury Park and was not scheduled to stop at Harringay or Hornsey. So a few minutes after the photo it sailed through Harringay without picking anyone up. The logic of this defies me as an extra stop at Harringay would hardly inconvenience anyone. Perhaps with the slow train out of the way the 'fast' train could make up time and arrive on schedule? But if instead of counting the number of trains arriving on time you consider the number of passengers arriving anywhere close to the scheduled time, Great Northern's action disadvantaged a great number of people.
Roger Blows posted a reply
#4018
09 Aug 2018 11:40
It would be good to be shot of Grayling and the whole sorry Thatcherite franchising system which has clearly failed. Allegedly, even Govia’s empire doesn’t make a profit out of its rail business.
But pending the revolution, what can be done about the gritty business of day-to-day management of the local service? Great Northern has manifestly never solved the driver-supply problem which it claims it inherited from its dreadful predecessor. It has obviously never developed a spirit of public service and high morale. How otherwise can frequent staff shortages be explained? It would indeed be helpful to hear from someone who has experienced working for the company.
The worn-out rolling stock and the shortcomings of Network Rail cannot make management any easier. If ever this line does get the promised new stock, is it imaginable that GN would be capable of making it run smoothly and to timetable?
Karl Brown posted a reply
#4019
09 Aug 2018 18:15
When you have a focus on the maximum extraction of cash from an organisation then other stakeholders, such as employees and customers, tend to suffer relatively.

Good management would focus on motivating drivers – and making sure there was an adequate supply. Watching driver interaction with eg Anita at Platform 1 and frequent willingness to wait briefly for someone racing down the stairs suggests they are a decent lot.

I really can’t imagine that managing a monopoly service back and forward between two fixed end points to a timetable and to everyone’s satisfaction, while making the odd and occasionally necessary in-flight fine-tuning adjustment to keep passengers moving, is beyond the ability of mankind.
Andrew Stedman posted a reply
#4020
09 Aug 2018 21:49
Thanks for the link to that speech: it is interesting that the Minister, in his response, was receptive to potentially making part of the GN franchise a part of TfL overground instead. I am in the fortunate position of being able to do a lot of my work from home, and so with an annual season ticket at £40 short of £2,000 now, I have cancelled mine and am now working 2 days (at least) from home, using pay as you go when I venture into zone 1. One thing I have now realised is that travelling on a mainline train from Palmers Green is £2 extra per day compared with going from a zone 4 underground station.

Passenger numbers are falling , so on the one hand my cancellation is another tiny reduction in TfL income, but with the regular (daily?) delays on Great Northern (14 minutes yesterday, 10 minutes today) it is much less hassle.

By accident I happened to catch some of the Select Committee investigation into the calamity of the 20th May timetable changes, and it seemed clear that much of the trouble is down to National Rail issues: a lack of electrification of some lines in other parts of the country, and short notice of the timetable details. So whilst I share the disgust of Govia's lack of drivers and poor management of problems such as that so vividly illustrated by the picture of Harringey, I do not pine for the days of nationalisation and "big government" running things. Instead, there needs to be a recognition that the franchise system has indeed failed to bring competition to the rail industry that compares to the success of privatisation of other sectors such as The Post Office running telephones, British Steel, British Leyland and British Airways, all of which required public subsidy and provided a poorer service.
Neil Littman posted a reply
#4021
10 Aug 2018 09:18
Just to show there is nothing new under the sun I am attaching a poster from a campaign back in 1999 when Thameslink were having a load of problems running a proper service. This was on the line from West Hampstead to Luton or into town.
Read 15 more comments